Legacy pharmacy benefit managers are being scrutinized for opaque practices and policies that drive up drug prices. However, a newer breed of PBMs are all about price transparency, especially as it relates to how drugs are prescribed in the U.S. and how patients access them.
Executives at Abarca, a modern, tech-enambled PBM believe that the prescription journey is unnecessarily complicated because of outdated tools and disconnected systems when in reality it should be seamless, safe, and patient-friendly. In this episode of the MedCity Pivot podcast, presented by Abarca, Javier Gonzalez, head of PBM and commercial strategy at the company, and Otto Sipe, founder and CEO of Photon talk about how pharmacy infrastructure can be reimagined such that it becomes both easier for prescribing physicians and patients who want to access drugs affordably. Photon is a pharmacy prescription platform allowing patients to shop between pharmacies.
Here’s a video of the podcast where the two discuss why benefit verification, prior authorizations, and patient affordability still break the workflow and how smart integrations, real-time eligibility, and intuitive design can reduce friction for all involved:
Here is an audio version also available for download on all major platforms
Below is an AI-generated transcript of the conversation.
Hello and welcome to the Med City Pivot Podcast. I’m your host. There are big players in the pharmacy benefits management marketplace, and there are questions about how best to affordably help patients access their prescription medications and in a way that providers find easy and less burdensome. In this episode, we’re talking about how price transparency is the new north in the world of pharmacy benefit management.
Today I will be speaking with two healthcare executives. First up is Javier Gonzalez, president of PBM and commercial atrategy at Abarca, a modern tech-enabled pharmacy benefit manager. Javier has more than 30 years of experience as a clinician and a pharmacy benefit management leader at abca. He’s focused on how one can use technology to simplify prescribing, improve the member and provider experience, and advance pharmacy’s role in care.
Javier is joined by Otto Sipe, founder and CEO of Photon, a startup that is building modern pharmacy infrastructure that empowers patients to shop for their prescriptions. An engineer by trade Otto has led the development of patient experiences at a variety of organizations such as 30 Medicine, Walmart Pharmacy, and Optimized Health.
This episode is sponsored by Abarca, a MedCity News partner.
Arundhati Parmar: So I’m gonna jump right into it. Javi, you are trying to change the status quo in the world of PBM Management and ePrescriptions. So let’s start with painting a picture here. If you are a clinician today and using the tools and infrastructure most commonly used, what are some of the frustrations?
Um, describe for me what, uh, pharmacy benefit management feels like today for clinicians.
Javier Gonzalez: Well, I would say, look, you know, everything is relative. And when we think about where we’ve been, uh, you know, 10 years ago versus where we’re at today, I think that there’s been a lot of progress made. Having said that, I still think that the, what we’re hearing from our providers is. Still a fragmented experience, right?
Fragmented, uh, a lot of information asymmetry, right? Because all the information exists, you know, for the most part, right? PBMs have their pieces of the pie, providers have their pieces of the pie, but there’s not this ability to connect it in a way that, uh, can create a better experience. And so there’s, you know, just think about these, these physicians. You know, they’re fighting with DTC ads, patients coming in, telling ’em they should be prescribing this, they’re fighting with, you know, all these different formulary designs that, that, that vary and. There’s not a lot of standardization in terms of, you know, you know, in pharmacy long time ago we decided that we needed to build a standard, right?
And so every pharmacy transmits and, and interacts in a very standard way in the EHR world, not so much, right? So because we don’t have those standards and we don’t have that level of integration data interoperability. It’s still a very fragmented experience. And last thing I’ll say is like the comm, the Council for Quality Health, um, basically put a number out there that, that, that there’s like $1.3 trillion are spent on managing, excuse me, billion is spent on managing, uh, prior authorization.
So it’s, it is just a crazy number.
Arundhati: We’re gonna get to prior authorizations in just a second. Um, but, uh, Otto, a similar question for you. Uh, what specifically is Photon looking to change in the world of e-prescribing?
Otto Sipe: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, e-prescribing is, is is what we do practically speaking. Like we sell software that allows a prescriber to write a prescription in their EMR or within our prescribing experience, um, and allow the patient to shop between pharmacies. So in a lot of ways, almost unexpectedly we’re quite aligned with helping the patient navigate their benefits.
So that means we’re starting to work directly with PBMs, like Abarca to do that. Um, but the, you know, the realization as a patient myself was like a few years ago, I didn’t really know what A PBM was. And if you ask the average American, I would bet you less than 5% of Americans know what A PBM is. And the ones that do probably don’t love their PBM, ’cause they found out what A PBM was when they first hit a prior auth.
Um, so my view is there’s huge opportunity to be proactive as a PBM in the patient experience in a way that’s positive. Um, and, you know, the PBM should be working for the patient. If you look at the incentives, like they, they do have a lot of reason to do what patients want. And, you know, I was on Twitter this weekend back and forth with TJ Parker and Mark Cuban about this, but, uh, PBMs are very good at putting downward pressure on drug prices.
And if you look at that. And employers both benefit. So, you know, I, I’ve got my gripes with PBMs, but you know, the, the main point here is that we think Photon and a patient experience can help tie together the benefits of the PBM in a way that the patient and the provider know what’s going on.
Arundhati: Uh, both, both of you. In other words, both Abarca and Um, and sorry, Photon are leveraging technology to make this, you know, you know, patient engagement, uh, easier and provide a better experience for patients. Similarly with providers, take away some of the frustrations, but historically, at least in the healthcare industry.
Technology, and I’m specifically talking about EHRs, they actually added to the burden, right? They were supposed to mitigate, uh, and make everything more efficient, and they’ve added to the burden. Um, so I’m wondering how important it is, um, to you, Javi, that you build tech that is not an added frustration for, for clinic.
Javier: No, I, I think that’s a, a, a, a great, great insight. First thing is. You know, at Abarca, you know, we’ve really, uh, have focused on trying to leverage a modern platform to try to take advantage of newer technologies, um, APIs. You know, we, we, we realized a long time ago that we weren’t gonna build every solution, uh, that we could deliver to the market to keep up with the speed of health, right?
The speed of technology. But what, what I think is important is. That we truly understand. Deeply the journey of that physician, right? Like that, that we understand what their pain points are, what tools they have access to, what technologies they have access to, and kind of look at the whole ecosystem, right?
Historically, we’ve been really focused on partnering with pharmacies. And, and figuring out, you know, through the N-C-P-D-P world, uh, how to, how to deliver and process, you know, over 225 million claims a year. Right. But again, it’s because there’s a standard. And so what I think the, the biggest, the biggest barriers, I think that as we, as I, um, alluded to my, in my first response is, you know, workflow disruptions.
Uh, you know, physicians are having to get out of their workflows to go into some portals to try to figure things out. That’s just very clunky. Um, you know, the, the fact that we have a lot of payer variability and formularies and coverage ums and stuff, that makes it very difficult for them. And then there’s just, you know, the, the, the not alignment on just what standard we’re going to use in order to try to connect this data interoperability that we have.
Interestingly, in July of 2025. White House CMS said, Hey, we’re gonna build this new health ecosystem with the goal of trying to improve data sharing and building better patient apps, giving visibility back to, to the members, to, to modernize. Right. Dr. Oz said like, like. Why are we like listening to what the rest of the rest of the world is telling us in terms of the disruptive innovation that’s coming out and why are we so behind?
Right. So I think that there’s, the biggest opportunities for me as I see it, is both on the prescriber and the provider side. AI driven automation, real time PAs. Then a deep EHR integration, right? With transparency. And I think transparency is the key word and, and it’s really a hot topic. And, and, and, uh, so that, that’s, you know, when, so when we’re gonna go build something, attributes that I think are gonna be important for Abarca is it’s gotta be seamless.
There’s gotta be standardization, right? Either we use the N-C-P-D-P scripts around EPA and we use fire, right? Like standards around fire to try to create that connectivity. We leverage. There’s a lot of cool stuff happening in generated ai and we think that obviously there’s things that we have to be careful with ethically.
But just, you know, trying to leverage the, the power of a ai, which is probably the, the most powerful innovation in decades, right? And people say, well, today. Healthcare is not, there’s not empathetic. It’s not, it’s not human. Well, I would say that, that that AI incredibly has the opportunity to make it more empathetic.
I mean, we hear stories about people falling in love with their chat bots, right? So I think that there’s plenty of opportunity as we think about leveraging that ai. And then finally, transparency and engagement, right? We need to be able to share information more openly, and I think differently in terms of the amount of information we can share.
And I think that, um, these, these conversational chat bots probably can share information more holistically where one response. You know, you’re seeing the potential, uh, alternatives. You’re seeing whether a drug has pa, you’re seeing what, what’s on formula, and it’s being explained in common English. Versus it kind of showing up in different places in the screen and, and that being very user friendly and we can create that symmetry and information because we can share that same information with members. Right. And I think empowering the members, uh, this type of integration and connectivity is, and absolute necessity.
And I’m sure Otto’s gonna share some of his feedback as well on that, on that note.
Arundhati I mean, when I look at it from a, from a consumer perspective, I kind of see transparency and prior authorization sort of linked. You know, so, uh, especially in the context of like GLP one drugs, which are so popular and you’re getting hammered by, you know, TV commercials on this is this miracle drug and you wanna get access to it and you can’t, and you don’t know why.
Right. So, I’m wondering, Otto, from your perspective, how do you sort of see this link between transparency and the prior and the, the stumbling blog that is prior authorizations.
Otto: Yeah, I mean, like I said earlier, the, the PA might be the first time that many consumers learn what a, what A PBM is, and maybe that’s an unfortunate thing to, to, to be fixed. Um, but yeah, also to connect to this, to the previous point on technology. Um, I think pharmacy’s still in like some pretty, you know, early two thousands tech stack mode right now.
And, and I don’t literally just mean, uh, you know, the technology that’s being leveraged in a pharmacy. I mean, the patient experience is barely online in a lot of, in a lot of cases. So, you know, we, we kind of joke internally at Photon that we’re deploying some just like nice 2000 tens tech. To pharmacy, like texting, um, you know, couple that with a lot of 2020s tech, namely conversational AI and, and voice bot.
We do a lot of calls to pharmacies. Um, I think that’s the answer to your question of how you make the prior auth process, uh, or any exception. I like, we kind of think of a prior auth as a generalizable exception that occurs at the pharmacy. And unfortunately, prior auths are one of many different exceptions that occur at the pharmacy.
So if you’re trying to build a supply chain. That is optimized around the patient actually getting their medication and understanding what’s going on. You have to tackle some pretty ugly. Uh, like human problems, like it, it’s hard to spill an abstraction around which pharmacies are open, nearby or not without, you know, kind of focusing on the underlying data.
So we’ve done a lot of that at Photon. Um, we’ve done a ton to understand, you know, a dozen different specific things that can go wrong at a pharmacy with AI and then signal that to the patient in a way that they know what to do. Um, and there’s a lot of. This is something a patient can handle on their own versus something that actually needs clinical insight.
So today, the status quo is anything that goes wrong in the pharmacy, either nothing happens, which is bad for everybody involved, or the pharmacy calls the doctor. So we, we are growing very rapidly because we’re able to sort of like empower the patient to do this on their own. And that’s your answer on prior auth.
Like there’s, there’s so much that could be done And, and yeah. on, on, a patient’s And, and for me just springboarding on that is how about, how about we, we do real time prior authorization so that it never has to be prior auth because we’re sitting on, on information or we can connect with the information in such a manner that we can create automatic flags in the system to circumvent Right.
Javier: Almost a form of gold carting if you think about it. Right? Um. We’re, we’re at the brink of really a, a very high, uh, threshold of physician burnout. And, you know, we’re seeing, uh, organizations like UnitedHealthcare saying, Hey, we’re gonna remove some prior authorizations. Uh, you know, we’re seeing Texas adopt gold karting.
And, and I think there’s a lot more legislation forcing, a lot more transparency and, and trying to get rid of some of the, um, the, the barriers, right, that are really, um, affecting increasing. You know, abandonment of prescriptions because now people can’t, people, and, and there’s indirect costs that are, are probably quite significant if we don’t try to figure out a better way to solve this.
Arundhati: I mean, you.
Otto: Yeah, and if I’ll add on to that, it was hard to interrupt, but if I, if I know that super quickly, if we learned anything from like the RTBC push from the last. 10 years. There was a JAMA study, you know, early this year that kind of, you know, got some rounds, online flaws in the study or not. Uh, pretty clear that RTBC writ large on a large population of prescribers isn’t well utilized.
So my view is really can’t afford to do the same thing with prior auths, where we create yet another workflow for a clinician to click through, and they’re not really incentivized. It is very clear to me that as a patient, like if I want to get access to my medication, like I’m the one who’s incentivized.
So you need to put a workflow in front of the patient. Same thing goes for cost. And, and I do think writ large PBMs are waking up to that lever. Um, you know, and, and shout out to Ibaka for, you know, some forward thinking here.
Arundhati: And, um, expand the acronym RTBC for me, Otto.
Otto: Uh, yes. Realtime benefit check or realtime patient benefit. Um, no one knows what it is ’cause it is something your clinician technically has access to and probably doesn’t use as much as they should because they’re not incentivized to shop for right. I mean, you, you talked about patient empowerment, uh, any or consumer empowerment, which, whichever way you wanna look at it, it is almost impossible. I’ll give you an example. I lost prescription in travel and I just wanted to call the pharmacy and say, Hey, you know, just give me a 30 day supply and I’ll pay you.
Arundhati: They could not, they didn’t know what it cost. Neither did the payer. And I was like, what? And finally I did a good rx and I took a coupon and I just bought, bought whatever I had to buy bypassed insurance. It’s, it’s shocking that the people in the marketplace selling these products do not know what these things cost.
So, um, that leads me to the question of how some payers and employers are. I don’t wanna use the word ditching, but they are restructuring their relationships with pharmacy benefit managers. And, um, Javier, please talk a little bit about what came about when Blue Shield of California decided they were going to go with a few different, um, organizations to do that pharmacy benefit and chose Abarca as one of the, uh, their partners.
Javier: Oh, thank you. Look, um, it, it was. At the time when it was announced, it sounded really crazy, right, that an organization like Blue Shield would, would take that chance to, to go and build a, a, be a trailblazer and, and build a new model, right? To compete with the existing, traditional models out there. Um, and they were really, they did their homework.
They really worked hard. They looked at the different, I mean, the, the, the process was extremely rigid and full of, you know, a lot of details, a lot of challenges for people to have to overcome because their vision was just really futuristic in terms of what they wanted to do. And so, you know, I think the reason what drove that.
In, in my opinion, right, is their, their, their drive to really reimagine the prescription experience or pharmacy experience, right. For, for their patients. Um, and they really, really were, had a north star around transparency and really changing that experience, right? And, and most large health plans who work with captive PBMs, right?
Uh, they don’t have the ability to, they, they have to, basically, it’s a one size fits all. They have to take the strategies of the big PBMs. They have to take their existing, uh, cost of goods or network partners. You know, they don’t really get a chance to innovate or, or, or change direction. And so, uh, what Blue Shield recognized early on was we need to be able to control the platform.
And therefore we need a modern platform that can connect and, and basically allow us the flexibility once, once that decision was made. And that’s the single most important decision, right? When we think about a modular PBM solution. That now allowed them to go connect with, uh, different, uh, uh, partners for, for retail network, the Mark Cubans of the world, the Amazons of the world, right?
And, and so I think that we’re, we’re eight months into this, right? So the, the baby’s still eight months old, but they have strategically changed their horizon, gained a lot more control, and I think they have some incredible ideas and you’ll probably be hearing more from them as time rolls. Rolls on, but I think, um, they’re very satisfied with the direction that they’re going in.
Arundhait: So OT on that vein, um, in that vein, the idea of. You know, looking at new kinds of relationships and new kinds of structures, you have a relationship with Mark Cuban cos Plus he’s very big on price transparency, almost to the point that he wants to bypass insurance all together. Um. How much of this will take hold?
Because, you know, one of the things that legacy companies like to say is that this is happening mostly with generics, right? While much of the drug price, uh, year on year, the increases that we see is, is specialty pharmacy. So do you see these companies like Mark, uh, you know, mark Cuban and, and sort of what you’re doing with them, do you think they will sail along with the wind of price transparency at their backs or.
Is there a limit as to how far these drugs can go?
Otto: Yeah. So I mean, I think what’s important to emphasize about Photon is that we have a relationship with a lot of pharmacies, like we are a marketplace the same way A PBM works with a lot of employers and, and a lot of pharma companies or a lot, you know, a lot of pharmacies. So like, we’re trying to take a similar vein where we’re building an interface for, um, like for example, in Mark Cuban’s case to put an offer in front of a patient and have a patient choose that offer.
So in, in a lot of ways we’re seeing some pretty incredible stuff where. Transparency is more important than prices being net lower. Um, and more important than that, convenience wins the day. So we’re probably gonna put out like a more seminal study on this. We’re still, you know, it’s kind of hard to sit down and build a white paper.
We’re talking about it today, but we want to sit down and say, okay, this is how consumers behave on the marketplace. And we’re, we’re doing a ton of. Really careful data analysis to understand why patients do certain things. Um, but writ large convenience rules a day and that makes a lot of sense. You want to know you’re gonna get something for sure at a certain price versus get it as quick as possible and as cheap as possible.
So I think if you think about how you make your own decisions about care, it’s not always that urgent to get something. Um, and you know, if it is, it’s gonna change where a patient goes. So, um, that’s the hardest problem of building a marketplace that can service everything from retail to specialty, is each consumer is making their own decision.
So to your answer on Mark Cuban, they don’t actually win on price as much as you would think. So the biggest problem that we see is patients see some marketing ’cause they follow Mark EBIT on Twitter. They think this is cheaper for me, but their drug is 10 times more expensive than. Gut rx, which maintains its own, you know, volume-based pricing, relationships with pharmacies and PBMs.
So yeah, if you really follow this down, like consumers are incentivized to shop across a lot of different options, but it’s very hard to do that ’cause someone’s not gonna go to six different websites, including their PBM portal to figure out what’s cheapest. So that, that we view our, our responsibility as, as one on behalf of the patient to surface the best offers possible.
Arundhati: I mean, you are also assuming, um, and I’m going off slightly on a tangent here, you’re also assuming a certain level of tech savvy for the of the consumer, right? If you are seriously. Chronic Ill patient. Do you have the luxury of going to photon or going to marque or going to five, six different sites?
How do you, how do you actually serve like the really sick folks?
Otto: yeah, yeah. I mean, my view is the really sick folks, um, especially the ones without a caregiver. Are are gonna not have access to a computer or not be able to like, you know, go do these kinds of things. So like, what is the simplest thing they might have access to a phone? Like SMS, like the, the base level, most likely digital access that anyone has is SMS.
Um, so, you know, we’re big on like, you know, making. Tech happen through unexpected interfaces, but a patient could use photon end-to-end without even clicking the link. They can just text us. So if they’re not on a smartphone, you know, we’ll see that we, we do see pretty incredible engagement with the interface, but 80% of patients across our whole population are clicking, um, clicking that link and choosing a pharmacy in one surprising stat, the older patients get the higher engaged they are.
And the reason is they’re more likely to have a caregiver. So that text isn’t going to 96-year-old, it’s going to maybe a son. Um, and we see the same thing, especially in pediatrics where like some of the highest engagement is from like the zero to five group, and they don’t have smartphones yet.
Arundhati: Thank God for that.
Um, it’s coming soon.
I wanted to get back to the relationship between the prescriber and the pharmacy. Um, can you talk Javi about how you close that gap between prescriber and pharmacy? Um, can you talk a little bit more in depth on that?
Javier: Uh, you know, for us, there’s a couple things that we’re doing at aup. Um, one of the things is, you know, we’re exploring the concept of that real time. Um. Benefit transaction, not only to the prescriber, but also to the pharmacy. Right. So the pharmacy, again, this is, you know, I, you keep hearing the, the terminology that I’m, I’m mentioning around information asymmetry.
Think the best thing that we can do with data interoperability is to, is to create the quality of the information. Um, and so I think that there’s things that we’re trying to, to work on, um, in closing that gap and giving, arming the pharmacist with, uh, as much information as the patient, as the doctor. And if we can triangulate those three key stakeholders.
The chances of of being misaligned, uh, I think are, are less likely. In addition, I like some of the concepts that Photon is doing in terms of, you know, trying to put the member in, like they’re the ones that are gonna take the medication, they’re the ones that are gonna pay the medication. They’re the one that are gonna receive the benefit, and so how do you change that so that they can be maybe a little bit more in control of that experience?
Right. Lastly, what I would say is another thing that we’re working on to try to really improve that pharmacy experiences. We’ve begun to work within our network, through our integrated different modules and capabilities to basically, uh, allow pharmacists to, to view the status of a prior authorization. And also we also provide tools to allow, uh, the pharmacist to participate in pay for performance programs around adherence. And so we share more information with them in terms of, of, um, you know, helping them understand which patients are at most risk to not be adherent and they can kind of tailor their interventions and they can actually.
Enter interventions into our platform and they actually receive, um, you know, incentives, right? And that has helped transform that experience for the pharmacist. Plus we provide a lot of information to them so that they understand what’s going on. And we think that’s helped us bridge some of the friction, uh, based at the pharmacy.
And, and it’s just about trying to connect the data, connect the data points, right? More effectively.
Arundhati: Absolutely. Um, and then finally, uh, Otto, I wanted to talk about regulation. You know, this, this subject of price, parents price transparency is something that we’ve seen in a bipartisan way across, uh, you know, different administrations. This focus on lowering drug prices, on maybe holding the legacy ppms a little more accountable.
So I’m wondering, are there any specific pieces of legislation that you are looking at, um, that can have an effect on. You know, making, um, healthcare less frustrating for everyone. Mm-hmm.
Otto: Yeah, and I, I don’t follow a regulation to the point to where I could cite like a specific bill or you know, Senator. My lobbying is relatively. Minimal these days. Um, but that there’s like two major trends that I’m really excited about. One is the Trump administration, uh, pushing for D two C from pharma.
And, and you know, this might be a little counterintuitive on a podcast about A PPM, but I do think that D two C, um, put like push or being able to surface net prices to patients is really powerful and that actually connects to something else that’s been happening. Uh, from the previous Trump administration or the first term of the Trump administration, where they passed, uh, rules on price transparency, where PBMs were required to list pricing sheets, including net pricing.
Um, that was delayed, I think ’cause of COVID or something. But that’s gonna be reinforced this year. And of course there’s, you know, some head scratching as to how to actually do this. It, I have a lot of empathy for how complicated it is to surface. You know, basically written contracts into price sheets.
We saw the same complexity when, uh, health systems of the past years were forced to do the same. Uh, then ingesting that data and building a meaningful consumer experience is even harder. That’s a lot of what we’re thinking about. But I do think we are within, you know, months if not, you know, years, uh, from like basically native transparency in pharmacy where a patient can see what something costs.
Before they have a prescription, uh, while they’re searching for pharmacies. And, and, and that’s a concept that, you know, we’ve seen coming for some time at Photon. But I think the PBMs are gonna have to rectify with that sort of open market dynamic. And in a lot of ways, as pharma’s moving toward D two C, it’s gonna put more pressure on transparencies from,
Arundhati: Absolutely.
Otto: But yeah, that’s, that’s the regulations I’m following.
Arundhati: I’m thinking, you know, Eli Lilly, uh, Pfizer have already announced as you two know wouldn’t be surprised if tomorrow there’s a partnership between Amazon and all these pharma companies. Javier, any, um, closing
Javier: No, it, it, look, this is a, a very important topic. I agree with everything that Otto said. We’re obviously in the PBM business, so we have to be a little bit more. To what’s happening out there. But, um, a lot of, a lot of the PBMs, a lot of the bigger PBMs see what’s happening as significant headwinds to their business model.
Eka sees it as significant tailwind and the things that Ottawa was talking about, like enabling, uh, you know, patients to be able to see their actual prices and be able to see options. Um, since we don’t own any pharmacies, we don’t own it, you know, we don’t own specialty, we don’t own mail, we don’t own retail.
You know, we think that there’s. There should be more openness and transparency so that a member at a point, point click can understand and make, and they, they can make the option of where they wanna drive that prescription. So I think that’s super important, getting back to land, like what’s out there when you think about what’s happening with FTC, which that’s still, you know, on their view on the big PBMs and the steerage and, and the, and the opaqueness of the, the model.
I think there’s a lot of. Things that are happening at the, at the federal level, at the state level. Okay. That are promoting and pushing transparency full pass through. Delinking. So PBMs can’t make dollars or can’t make revenue based on the cost of a prescription. We’re looking at from a Medicaid perspective, we’re looking at banning spread pricing.
Uh, even with some states, they’re, they’re asking employer or they’re demanding that employers get some type of, of reporting to, to, to demonstrate the pass through and the transparency. So I think that this is gonna continue. Uh, last year a lot of these bills almost passed. Uh. They more than likely will come back up.
And, um, and so I think at Abarca we’re preparing, uh, for those opportunities. I think, like I said, I think we embrace it. I think there’s, there’s opportunities to really transform, uh, the current PBM model, um, that we have. And we’re here for a reason, right? Because integrity is very important. Trust and integrity is very important in healthcare.
And we think that there’s a, a better way to deliver a better solution. So we’re excited about the future.
Arundhati: Well, thank you to both of you for spending some time with us. This is truly an important topic and I think it is coming up in the consumer consciousness too. People are paying attention, so thank you.
Javier: you. Thank you.